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BATTERY ON WHEELS – ROLE OF EVS IN SHAPING THE ENERGY GRID OF THE FUTURE – EV Summit 2022 panel

BATTERY ON WHEELS – ROLE OF EVS IN SHAPING THE ENERGY GRID OF THE FUTURE – EV Summit 2022 panel

by Katie
28/11/2022

Speaker 1:

The next and final panel that we have is taking us into an additional service that electric vehicles can provide, which is, giant batteries on wheels and how that links in and plugs into our grid. It was only what, I think maybe a month or two ago that we had an electricity crisis in this country where the energy market operator had to suspend the market. That came down to really three reasons, according to the operator. The first, the constant breakdown and the large number of core power stations that where out. The expensive price of coal and gas. And difficulties with supply issues as well. Alongside the electrification of transport comes cleaning up our electricity grid. But there is a clear overlap as to how both can assist each other. And this next session I’ll invite John Grimes to the stage to help lead it. We’ll unpack exactly how we can plug our vehicles into the grid and provide additional services beyond just getting off oil. With that, please welcome John.

John Grimes:

And so we’re going to undergo a profound transition in this country. We’re going to take all of the energy that is currently used in petrol and in diesel, and we’re going to actually put it onto the electricity grid. Now that is a nontrivial thing to do. Transportation equates to 18% of total emissions in Australia. That gives you a sense of how big that is, every vehicle, every commercial vehicle, heavy vehicle. And we’re going to transition that to the electricity grid and we’re going to have another big disruptor. And that is that we’re going to have these fleets of batteries on wheels, which is an electric vehicle. And that has profound implications in terms of the type of grid that we run and much more. So this panel discussion is really to dive into that. Before we begin, though, you might want to get your pen and a bit of paper and write down this date. On the 30th of November in Sydney, the Smart Energy Council is running with the support of boundless, a batteries on wheels summit.

So 30th of September in Sydney, if you’d like to be involved, please reach out to us. We’d love to hear from you. Want to put together and really extend the conversation that we’re starting today in that forum. Okay. We’ve got a really fantastic panel today. So including on the panel, Dr. Monique Ryan, who is the member for Kooyong. Professor Lachlan Blackhall, who is the head of battery storage and grid integration. Now there’s a man who really knows what he’s talking about at the Australian National University, Chris Cormack, who is the executive general manager at Discover Energy. And Dr. Gabrielle Kipa, who is a senior advisor to the smart energy council. Welcome everybody. So I’ve got some questions here but we’ll make it free flowing. So feel free to kind of chip in and we’ll take it along. First, perhaps an open question and that is that what role will electric vehicles play in the energy grid of the future? Lachlan, you looking like you’re in the spotlight?

Professor Lachlan Blackhall:

Awesome. Well, I think maybe to paint the picture of what the future grid is going to look like, and then we can talk specifically about EV. So I think it’s very clear that our future electricity system’s going to be powered by renewable generation, largely provided by utility wind, utility solar and residential PV. And it’s going to be firmed by storage. And so storage will be both in the form of pumped hydro and also in the form of batteries. And so I think that is not in dispute and the economics point precisely in that direction. And so there’s some really great evidence that continues to come out of the gen cost report from CSIRO and also AEMO integrated system plan, which the most recent one has just been released. So in that context, we need a prodigious amount of storage in our grid.

And so electric vehicles potentially form a big piece of that energy storage that we’re going to connect into our electricity system. And so a colleague of mine within the last couple of years talked about this headline number that, if all 19 million vehicles in Australia transition to be electric. They would essentially provide as much energy storage capacity as five times the Snowy 2.0 in terms of energy capacity. So I think number one, the role that electric vehicles can play alongside providing transport is simply that they become a really significant source of energy storage. And that goes directly to support the energy transition and ensure that we have energy, reliability, and energy security.

John Grimes:

Gabrielle, do you have a view?

Dr. Gabrielle Kipa:

I think I can probably just add on to what Lachlan said in terms of, if you look at EVs today, and a lot of the discussion today has been about the costs of electric vehicles at the moment. And EVs are relatively expensive decarbonization at current prices, but they’re very, very cheap battery storage. So as many people have said, “You buy a battery on wheels and you get a free car.” And essentially we need to very much make sure that people can understand that their own personal property, their electric vehicle can play a really important role in supporting the grid. Both in terms of storage, but also in terms of grid services.

So the discussion earlier about frequency control and ancillary services, and I think the other thing that Lachlan and his team’s research shows is, it is important people to know that this isn’t going to be big bad AEMO or someone controlling how your battery is used. But the importance of having managed charging so that your battery is using abundant solar during the middle of the day. And also that it’s there and available that can be drawn upon when needed. So it’s not necessarily going to be every night, but it’s particularly those times of peak demand when they’re going to want discharge into the grid or minimum demand when they’re going to be useful to draw energy from the grid.

John Grimes:

I think in fact, before I ask the next question, take out your pen and where you wrote down the 30th of September, put a line through it and write down 30th of November instead. My team are going ballistic and my phone just won’t stop buzzing. So unless I tell you that, but I think Gabrielle, your point is really critical because what you have is you have a private asset. You’ve bought this huge battery, but there are all sorts of public implications, both in terms of how you use the private asset, but also how the private asset could be used to actually support the rest of the network. So this distinction between the private good and the public good, how important is that do you think in terms of getting that right from a policy perspective?

Dr. Monique Ryan:

I think it’s really important, John, but I think it’s also a really big opportunity for people. So what we’ve had in the last nine years is a government that has engendered anxiety about electric vehicles. They’re going to steal your weekend. People have got status, ranger [inaudible 00:07:38].

No, the people with the electric vehicles don’t have status anxiety. No, range, anxiety, all of the above. And it would be possible now for people to couch this whole thing in terms of, they’re going to take your battery storage away. They’re going to take your electricity away. But in fact, what can be engendered with distributed networks is people having more faith in the system. So right now people are worried about how much the electricity is going to cost.

I had people during the campaign in Kooyong saying that they were worried, they wouldn’t be able to cook puppies dinner, because puppy likes the dinner cold. And don’t you understand when the sun doesn’t shine and the wind doesn’t blow, I won’t be able to cook my puppy’s dinner. Actually you can take back some of the control over this. And in fact, then you can give back to the system. So I think a lot of the language around the rollout of all of this needs to be about giving people control of their own home electrical supply. But also the ability to build resilience for the community. And it needs to be presented to people as a hugely positive thing rather than something that should make them concerned about the autonomy of their own electricity supply essentially.

John Grimes:

Indeed.

Professor Lachlan Blackhall:

I was just going to say, I think it’s really interesting because I don’t think it’s something we need to tell them actually. Because when you go out and talk to communities, exactly what they say back to you is that they’re quite happy for their assets to be involved, to actually provide a benefit for their neighbors, for their community. They’re quite comfortable with the notion that their assets would be used to provide resilience, particularly during times of natural disasters and so on. I think you’re exactly right. It’s about giving them agency and choice in terms of, and clarity around what their assets are actually doing. But there is an overwhelming community willingness for this to be the future that we have. And so I think now is a fantastic opportunity to pull the policy levers that we need to pull to actually head towards implementing that future, rather than just talking about it.

John Grimes:

Chris, your company sits at this intersection, the intersection between the private asset and the network. You’ve got a program of managed EV charging. Can you tell us what that is and what it means?

Chris Cormack:

Yeah, sure. So I mean obviously one of the issues with the integration of EVs into the energy system is, “What is this going to do to our network?” And so you’ve got a whole bunch of people who have seen the wave of EVs coming, and this is probably more overseas than here and have decried that in terms of our grid is not going to be able to handle all of these EVs. So obviously the way to deal with that is to probably incentivize consumers to provide or to do the right thing. And so what we do, we’ve got a program with OS Grid. It’s just a tariff trial, but what we’re doing is really providing what we’re calling a virtual controlled load. So effectively in the past, you’ve had hot water systems and other things that have been connected to the electricity network that have come on in the middle of the night. Because that’s when coal fired power stations were running and you needed electricity.

The situation now is different. It’s much more, there’s solar in the middle of the day. We actually need you to charge in the middle of the day. So we provide incentives to charge cheaply in the middle of the day. But also to keep your EV plugged in so that we can send signals to let you know that, “Hey, it’s a cheap time in the market right now to charge or maybe it’s not the right time to charge right now. It’s a bit expensive.” So that’s the idea. And this is the first step to really get the full value out of what Lachlan and others have been talking about is this whole V2G, which is jargon in a way. Vehicle to grid. And I know Tim and others have talked up vehicle to grid.

It’s definitely coming, but to explain this to customers, to get them board, to get them to trust the energy industry. Because let’s be honest, the energy industry does have a deficit of trust with respect to consumers at the moment. And I can’t see that improving in the next little while, but effectively these vehicles will be, you’ll be able to provide energy to the whole street at peak times, if you are set up correctly to do that. And there will be incentives, there’s a case to suggest that EVs, if they’re managed correctly, you could do away with an energy bill. You just have an EV that you allowed to be plugged in and used to supply peak energy to others from time to time. So there really is a lot of opportunity.

John Grimes:

Monica, you touched on something a second ago and that was the status of Evs. You don’t have a status problem and that alludes the fact that EVs really are for rich people. And so the question really is how do we make sure that poor people aren’t left behind? That there aren’t inequities built into what we are doing here.

Dr. Monique Ryan:

EV’s actually are seen and I noticed because I keep being accused of someone who owns one and I don’t. I tried a 12 year old Golf, but there was a headline in the Australian about that last week to say, “She can’t afford an EV. Pull the other one.” I was like, “You want my bank statements?” EVs are seen as the preserve at the moment of rich people and that’s a problem. And a lot of people want one, I’d love one, but affordability and availability is a big problem. And so I think people are thinking about this. But we do need to do everything that will promote secondhand EVs coming onto the market. And making them more accessible in that way, whether that be parallel imports or the measures that minister Bowen spoke to this morning about fleet vehicles and things like that. It’s going to take five or six years for that to have any impact on the market.

I think shared facilities for shared EVs a really important. Especially for those people who live in apartment buildings and things that are just not going to be able to, at least in the short term, be able to charge up on their own premises. But perhaps also not be able to afford or house an EV. All of those things are possible. It just takes the infrastructure for support, for things like charging facilities that are easily available on the street. Perhaps more places as lotted for shared EVs for the community and things like that. And increasing the secondhand market is really important.

John Grimes:

Totally. I bought a secondhand EV for $20,000. I feel like the luckiest guy in the country, Gabrielle?

Dr. Gabrielle Kipa:

If we took all 15 million cars that are all currently fossil fuel powered and converted them to electric, that would be a really bad outcome. And I say that because it would be bad for the environment because of the embodied carbon in the vehicles, it would be bad because of the additional electricity supply. It would be bad in terms of health and wellbeing. All of the international research shows, if we want to meet a one and a half degree trajectory that Anna Skarbek was talking about, we need to do two things in parallel. Yes absolutely, we need to electrify some of our car fleet, maybe half as fast as possible. But we also need to give people the opportunity, the choice to use walking, cycling, and public transport. And fortunately there’s an innovation, not only in four wheels, but in two and three wheels. So electric bicycles, including electric cargo bikes, thanks very much, check will be in the mail.

So obviously an EV, you may be able to get one for $20,000, but you can get electric bike, maybe for $2,000. You can get an old fashioned acoustic bike for a few hundred dollars. And we’ve done an excellent job in this country of entrenching car dependency in our urban planning, in our transport planning. And really, if we want to take decarbonization of transport seriously, then we also need to put the investment into supporting, walking, cycling, public transport. So as much as we want to have all of these government initiatives to support EVs, I think we should also be thinking about, should be having FBT concessions for electric bikes, ordinary bikes. Perhaps can we sell package public transport, PA passes. There’s a whole range of measures that we could take place so that yes, we electrify maybe half our passenger cars. But we also give people the opportunity to move a lot of trips to walking, cycling, public transport.

John Grimes:

It’s a new term that it sparked for me, Gabrielle. And we talk about the electrification of everything in your home. Well, this is the electrification of all transportation. So it’s all the way through the system. Don’t just think about vehicles, but public, and then the smaller private, put it in your backpack and unfolded and scooter in the city, whatever it might be. Fantastic. Lachlan, I might come back to you. We know that in a sense, these assets can be very positive. We’ve heard from Chris and others about that, or they could be actually a problem. Where are they likely to actually recharge them as opposed to where they really should be? So is there a disconnect between the two in the trends that we are seeing emerging in the market?

Professor Lachlan Blackhall:

Yeah, I think so. At the moment, I think most people who buy have an expectation that they will charge it at home. They install their charger, they’ll drive home in the evening and they’ll charge it there. And I think as has been said, we really want to incentivize people charging cars where there’s a lot of energy available. And so at the moment we have huge amounts of solar generation during the day. And so it makes sense to charge cars during the day when we have that abundant solar resource. So if we go back three years ago, I probably would’ve said, “Well, that means simply we’re charging at work, because everybody will be driving to work.” And so you bulk out your charging facilities in city centers. Post pandemic, we have a lot of people now working from home and actually that works quite well because that means that they should be charging at home in the middle of the day.

And that’s actually where they are and what they can do. So I tend to think this is a specific example of a bigger problem that we need to actually solve. And that is that we are getting all of these new assets into our electricity system. So PV on roofs and residential batteries and community batteries and electric vehicles. And ultimately we need to solve what we would call the grid integration problem. And that is, it’s the set of systems and capabilities and algorithms and standards that basically mean you can optimize how assets behave so that they can support the electricity system.

And this really goes to the fact that we are going to be electrifying everything. And that means electrifying all of our transportation. It means electrifying other industries like agriculture and so on, and then having electricity vectors into industry and industrial chemicals. And so we’re going to need, the electricity grid is going to do the heavy lifting of transition. And if we get this grid integration part of it right, then actually we kind of get the EV charging side of it actually for free as part of that.

John Grimes:

Chris, a question for you, is it possible for people to make money from their electric vehicles?

Chris Cormack:

It will be probably not right now. It’s all about charging and probably getting the cheapest charge time. But obviously that V2G really then does give you an ability to utilize the battery for arbitrage of the wholesale market for FCASS for potentially even other network services. But I guess that is the future. So we probably need to solve some of those grid integration problems before we get to that point. One of the interesting things that we are finding now is some of the questions like, “Why would I get a battery when I can just wait until I get a battery on wheels?” And that’s a really interesting question because if you’ve got your household, you’ve got your car. Well, what do I need a battery for? One of the issues is you’ve got to actually buy… If you want to get a fast charger at home, you may have to actually pay to get your network upgraded.

Now, three phase power, if anyone knows anything about that, can be expensive. And in my particular part of the world, it would cost me $40,000 to get three phase power to my home. So in that circumstance, it actually makes sense for me to have a battery and to have a fast charger installed at the same time in the same place. Because your battery home battery is actually going to be utilized to minimize the cost of your network upgrade. Plus also add a little bit of extra value to store the solar when your car’s not there or all of that kind of stuff. So I think there’s a place for both. And especially as the V2G capability of the car, it’s going to take a while to get to a point where that is actually available. Most car manufacturers are not warranting their cars for that just yet. Most cars are designed to drive not to be grid assets effectively, but that will have to happen in time.

Professor Lachlan Blackhall:

I think that’s a really interesting point though, because I think you’re right, that it’s not there. It’s not there just yet, but if you do make sure that your cars and your charges are designed to integrate with the grid. You end up getting a huge amount of energy shifting capacity from your electric vehicles. And so the notion that you can then manage where EVs charge and then potentially drive your energy home. So you might be in the city at work, you might charge up during the day. You could literally drive the energy for cooking dinner, home with you. And then discharge it into the house.

And so all of these things might seem a little fantastical, but in reality, this is how you we’re going to run very sophisticated, renewable powered grids. And really the challenge at that point is just ensuring that people still have the same interface with the grid, which is that they want to turn the lights on and off. They actually don’t want to have to look at an app. They don’t want it to be complicated. And so I think for all of us who are working in this sector, that the key challenge is actually to design technology that’s so ubiquitous that people just don’t know it’s there, but that it just works.

John Grimes:

It sparked an interesting thought for me, Lachlan, we’ve got a skills shortage, a forward thinking company puts in a big solar array at work. You drive to work, you power up with very cheap, zero carbon electricity while you’re at work. And then you take it home. What a great way to attract staff and solve a bit of an energy and climate problem at the same time. So it’s just innovative thinking. So it’s been done perfect.

Jane:

And we’re seeing that some of our offices in the US. A mixture of AC and DC charging at work, and it’s an offer that they use to sum up power during work. And it’s just offering a gym.

John Grimes:

We’re just going to get a microphone for you here just to, so that others can hear the comment.

Jane:

Yeah. I was just saying that we are seeing that with customers… Can you hear me… In the US where they’re offering a mixture of DC and AC charges at work. So there’s a floor for slow charging and a floor for fast charging. For those who are working from home and just coming in for meetings and need a rapid charge. They stop up power off the roof during the day. They have a massive solar array on the roof, and it’s just seen as a huge benefit for staff, just like offering childcare on site or a gym on site. Staff love it and it’s a great power stop during the middle of the day.

Speaker 9:

Sorry, we’re just taking over. [inaudible 00:24:21]. At our workplace, we have a policy where everyone who has an electric car gets charged for free, and we have charging stations at our work obviously. And our policy doesn’t change once bidirectional charging becomes the norm. So our policy, and we’ve got 110 staff, every single one of them, once they can afford to buy an electric vehicle, if they choose to buy a bidirectional charger at home. Then they can have the electricity on us as well for their house as well. And as Jane said, it is just the future of staff retention. You do that to attract staffing, to give them benefits. Just another thing.

John Grimes:

Well, let me make some lemonade out of lemons. It seems one of the very few advantages of being one of the last movers in the world when it comes to electric vehicle policy, is we actually get to learn from the good ideas that are actually emerging in markets overseas. Why wouldn’t we do that? And it was a bit like they talk about Vietnam. Apparently didn’t put in a traditional telephone network with the cables, they leapfrog directly to mobile phones. So all of these good ideas give us a template to really make the transition quickly and no fantastic. Monique coming back to you just momentarily, bringing it back on the ground. And that is the people of Kooyong. The voters of Kooyong, how do we make it easier for them to actually get into an electric vehicle? And how do we also just help with that low income problem for people in Kooyong?

Dr. Monique Ryan:

Well, I think the role of the government is to act on the affordability side of things. My personal plug gave a proposal to the treasurer earlier this week to act on the luxury car tax discount in such a way as to make electric vehicles more competitive. But that’s at the top end of the market. But I think we have to increase range and affordability across all price brackets. And all of the things we’ve been talking about today will do that. Whether it’s fuel efficiency standards, whether it’s, essentially eventually getting rid of the luxury car tax discount. Perhaps bringing in more models from either from… Perhaps increasing local production. The future’s very, very bright. And the reality is that most people do want an electric vehicle, but that they’ve been put off by this sort of niche perception of them. And I think that the people in this room will work very effectively on that in the next few years.

John Grimes:

Yeah no, fantastic. I’d like to conclude with the final thought from all of you. So just take a moment to start to digest that, what that might mean in terms of a final comment. And Monique, I actually want to come back to you for the very last word of all, because you are the person on this panel who sits in the federal parliament. You are, I think, the whole of Australia is looking to you and your colleagues in terms of how you’re going to show leadership on this area. So we’re very keen to get your final thoughts. But I might first go to you, Chris. And just any other final thoughts or key messages you really want to get out today?

Chris Cormack:

Yeah, sure. Australia is in a really interesting position because we have the largest amount of rooftop solar in the world. So I can’t remember the count, maybe it’s 30% of households now, maybe it’s higher than that, John?

John Grimes:

Sorry. In South Australia it’s well above 30%. In Queensland, it’s above 30%. In New South Wales it’s still probably in the twenties. So a little bit of work to do there.

Chris Cormack:

And look, one of the highest indicators of buying an EV is having solar in Australia. So if we imagine that 33% of people have already bought solar, then if we can get the EV supply problem sorted out, we can move really quickly. But obviously we’ve got a chance to do maybe this one better than we did solar. And that’s a whole nother discussion. But I think, let’s learn the lessons of what’s going on overseas and make the right policy changes.

John Grimes:

And the other thing that strikes me is just the range of vehicles that are available overseas. I travel a lot to China and the number of vehicles that are available at the 20, 30, $40,000 price, which are beautiful cars. Really, from big manufacturers, people like BYD and others. I think it’s just a matter of turning on the tap, just to make this happen.

Chris Cormack:

Well, I hear in China, even the Chinese demand for cars out stripping supply for EVs.

John Grimes:

Well, when you’re in Beijing, they give you a special number plate. And if you’ve got the electric vehicle number plate, you can actually drive when others can’t. So there’s big incentives for them to do that. So Gabrielle?

Dr. Gabrielle Kipa:

I think for true sustainability, we need fewer cyber trucks and more electric bicycles. And I know some people will think that bicycles, electric bicycles, that’s very niche. I think it’s really important to point out that electric bicycles make riding a bike, a lot more accessible to a lot more people. Including people with chronic illness, for example, aging people that wouldn’t otherwise get on a bike. Also what’s often forgotten is that particularly electric cargo bikes can be a family vehicle. You can take your kids to school. And I gather the Suburb of Northgate, they’re known as Northgate tractors, because there’s so many electric cargo bikes now, with parents taking their kids to school, using an electric bike.

John Grimes:

Geez, I would say we’re electric when I was riding a cargo bike because I can carry two kids in one of those things, anyway.

Dr. Gabrielle Kipa:

And the good news is that the research shows that people who use electric bikes get just as much fitness, health and wellbeing benefit, because actually go further because they’re using electric bike. The other thing I wanted to remind people of is that electric bikes can also be used for freight. So Amazon are now trialing electric cargo bikes for last mile deliveries in London. And I think it’s particularly in crowded inner city areas, you can get around faster by using an electric bike. They’re being trialed in various places by police officers, paramedics. Ideally we’d have tradies who only need small supplies, getting around using electric cargo bikes. So within all the discussion that often focuses on very expensive passenger vehicles. I think it’s important to remember that there’s a whole range of electric vehicles that are going to be part of our future and we need to make sure they get just as much policy and regulatory attention as passenger vehicles.

John Grimes:

That’s it, that’s in our submission. That’s in our submission. Take out your pens, where I said that solar was at 30, just over 30% in South Australia and Queensland. My brains trust tells me that’s wrong. It’s now over 50% in both jurisdictions. So thank you, brain trust, Lachlan?

Professor Lachlan Blackhall:

I tend to think a lot about how EVs will plug into the grid. And so I think for me, that the takeaway is, and this really goes to Chris’s point about what we didn’t do with solar. We need to be planning now for how we’re going to be plugging all these EVs into our grid. And to me that means ensuring that every charge point that goes in is either managed or has some smart charging capability. And that we get the interoperability standards for that right up front. And that means that when we plug in 19 million electric vehicles, we’re actually going to have them supporting the grid rather than working against it.

John Grimes:

Excellent. Monique, I might come to you last for final reflections, look on the question, but also on anything that you’ve heard today. And just what you think are the imperatives in this space.

Dr. Monique Ryan:

I think we’re standing on a moment in time. And I do feel like we’re on the cusp of something that’s just going to flip in terms of, in five years, 10 years time, no one will want to buy a new internal combustion engine car, because why would you? So what’s contingent on the people in this room in the next three to five years is to put in place all of the things that need to be there for people to make that transition in an easy, accessible, affordable way. And I always shy away from these summits, because there’s so many terrible metaphors about hitting the road or changing gear or that sort of thing. What was that one?

Dr. Gabrielle Kipa:

Foot on the accelerator.

Dr. Monique Ryan:

Put the foot on the accelerator. Oh man, but this one, we need to be positive. I really think it’s really important that people, we have to take along all sectors of the community in this transition and people can’t feel excluded by it because of price or because of availability. People have to know that this is something that’s going to benefit everybody including them. And that they’re going to be able to access it in the same way that everyone else does. So it’s really important that all parts of the market be thought about at all phases of this.

And if you can’t afford an electric car, sure you can buy an electric bike. Around Canberra, the number of scooters that are around is extraordinary. And the uptake of them just in the last few years is incredible. I have concerns about helmets as I do about masks. It should be something that is accessible to everybody. And there’s lots of ways that the people in this room who are incredibly innovative and versatile will be able to come up with. But I think it has to be something that brings along the people of Australia and gives them a sense of autonomy, capacity, positivity, and a real sense of us doing this together. And something that’s going to make it better for everybody. And the language around that is very important for people.

John Grimes:

When I arrived this morning, Mike Cannon-Brookes had a big smile on his face. And he told me that he got to the center today by riding one of those electric scooters, with his hair tied back apparently. And the good news is in the ACT, a hundred percent, zero emissions energy too. So a fantastic outcome. So maybe leading the way in terms of what’s possible, Gabrielle. So ladies and gentlemen, firstly 30th of November continue the discussion, Batteries on Wheels Summit, Hilton Hotel in Sydney. That’s the first thing. Secondly, please join me in thanking our panelists today for their fantastic comments.

 

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